If while acting in your own self-interest you knowingly, through action or inaction, allow others to come to harm, even indirectly, that is evil. In the same way that a character knowingly doing something that benefits others would arguably make them good. A chaotic neutral person may act on a whim or in self-interest the majority of the time, but I doubt they’d let their actions cause actual harm to others.
But trying to pigeonhole human behavior into a rigid matrix of alignments is inherently flawed, people are much more complex than that. Fortunately, DND allows the DM free reign to define that or allow it to be a grey area - in reality, “alignment” will always be fluid.
There‘s also the distinction between allowing evil practices for your personal gain and allowing them to avoid harming yourself. The latter would be a neutral alignment.
By that description, the vast majority of people are evil. Well, both evil and good, since most people at least occasionally do things that aren’t in their self-interest to help others. But primarily evil, thanks to the inaction clause on the evil side and nothing comparable on the good side.
They’re also more evil the more educated they are, since they’re more aware of ways that people are suffering harm that they could potentially abate.
For example, if you are not homeless and you are aware that some people are homeless and a storm is coming, if you don’t help them all find shelter - to the extent of bringing them into your own home even if it means you end up not having a place to sleep - by your definition, you’re evil.
I’m not a fan of that definition, either for D&D or anything else, but if it works for your table, great!
An “evil” act does not make a person evil necessarily. We all do bad shit sometimes. My point was it’s a grey area that can’t be defined with 9 alignments outside of the structure of a game, but knowingly allowing your actions to cause harm to others is an evil act.
That being said, the idea of good and evil is entirely the result of fiction. I don’t believe there’s a black and white “good and evil” in reality. Human actions and motivations can’t be defined so broadly IMO.
I prefer to think of good vs evil as altrusim vs egoism. LG is “the laws should protect everyone” and LE is “the laws should protect me”. CG is “everyone should be free to live as they please” and CE is “I should be free to live as I please”. Acting in pure self-interest with no regard for ideals would be CE, or maybe NE depending on how it’s done.
Yeah, at best it’s chaotic neutral. It’s not evil. Evil is a desire to harm others. Self interest isn’t evil, just not good. I would say true neutral because it’s not acting in a desire to rebel against laws either, but I could see an argument for chaotic neutral.
For reference for people familiar with BG3, the dead three are evil gods. They actively want to cause harm/death. Evil isn’t just someone who doesn’t care. Evil is someone who cares and wants to harm.
Evil isn’t the desire to harm others. Devils don’t desire to claim people’s souls for the lulz, they do it for power. Everything they do is to gain power, for their own benefit. They don’t care if the souls will become lemures or a snack, they just try to convince people and scheme for their own benefit anyway.
Demons are way more brutal, they don’t really gain pleasure from pain per-se, they also want power, but their approach is way more direct. If they can gain power by killing all those people and bathing in their blood, thay will forcefully do it, not by deceiving the human through a shitty contract, but by forcing their power.
Devils are LE, demons are CE. All in all, evil is the disregard of moral consequences when finding ways to benefit yourself.
Deceiving someone to sign a shitty contract so they now must slave away for you? LE.
Kidnapping someone and forcing them to do stuff to your benefit? CE.
Reaching a fair accord so that you allow people in need to work for you for a fair price, where both parties give a bit so no one is really getting taken advantage off? Either LG or LN depending on the context.
Offering to kill the bad monster that is terrorising the town for free, and disregarding the lucrative offers from it because it’s the right thing to do? Any good alignment.
Any of those people could have desires of harm, it’s how they channel their wants that puts them in different places in the alignment chart.
Evil is basically desire to do harm or to have power over others (which I’d argue is the same thing). Tyranny is evil because it removes others ability to do what they want, which is harmful. It’s about a desire. A desire to have power over someone, or to harm someone, or to kill someone, etc. Gaining power over someone isn’t the disregard for consequences, it is regarding them and choosing tyranny.
However, good actions also often do this. You kill bad people, imprison criminals, etc. It’s good because you were trying to help/protect someone. Not good would be anything else, which both neutral and evil have to fit in there somewhere. Neutral must be without regard, and evil must be with regard and intent to do the opposite. If not, what is neutral or evil if it’s not those?
Isn’t acting purely in self interest the general definition of chaotic neutral?
If while acting in your own self-interest you knowingly, through action or inaction, allow others to come to harm, even indirectly, that is evil. In the same way that a character knowingly doing something that benefits others would arguably make them good. A chaotic neutral person may act on a whim or in self-interest the majority of the time, but I doubt they’d let their actions cause actual harm to others.
But trying to pigeonhole human behavior into a rigid matrix of alignments is inherently flawed, people are much more complex than that. Fortunately, DND allows the DM free reign to define that or allow it to be a grey area - in reality, “alignment” will always be fluid.
I think most Americans buy products made via unethical labor practices, and which damage the environment, harming everyone.
Are you really making the argument that the vast majority of Americans are evil?
As an American, I’m not not making that argument.
There‘s also the distinction between allowing evil practices for your personal gain and allowing them to avoid harming yourself. The latter would be a neutral alignment.
By that description, the vast majority of people are evil. Well, both evil and good, since most people at least occasionally do things that aren’t in their self-interest to help others. But primarily evil, thanks to the inaction clause on the evil side and nothing comparable on the good side.
They’re also more evil the more educated they are, since they’re more aware of ways that people are suffering harm that they could potentially abate.
For example, if you are not homeless and you are aware that some people are homeless and a storm is coming, if you don’t help them all find shelter - to the extent of bringing them into your own home even if it means you end up not having a place to sleep - by your definition, you’re evil.
I’m not a fan of that definition, either for D&D or anything else, but if it works for your table, great!
An “evil” act does not make a person evil necessarily. We all do bad shit sometimes. My point was it’s a grey area that can’t be defined with 9 alignments outside of the structure of a game, but knowingly allowing your actions to cause harm to others is an evil act.
That being said, the idea of good and evil is entirely the result of fiction. I don’t believe there’s a black and white “good and evil” in reality. Human actions and motivations can’t be defined so broadly IMO.
I prefer to think of good vs evil as altrusim vs egoism. LG is “the laws should protect everyone” and LE is “the laws should protect me”. CG is “everyone should be free to live as they please” and CE is “I should be free to live as I please”. Acting in pure self-interest with no regard for ideals would be CE, or maybe NE depending on how it’s done.
I like your take, you said it better than I did.
Yeah, at best it’s chaotic neutral. It’s not evil. Evil is a desire to harm others. Self interest isn’t evil, just not good. I would say true neutral because it’s not acting in a desire to rebel against laws either, but I could see an argument for chaotic neutral.
For reference for people familiar with BG3, the dead three are evil gods. They actively want to cause harm/death. Evil isn’t just someone who doesn’t care. Evil is someone who cares and wants to harm.
Evil isn’t the desire to harm others. Devils don’t desire to claim people’s souls for the lulz, they do it for power. Everything they do is to gain power, for their own benefit. They don’t care if the souls will become lemures or a snack, they just try to convince people and scheme for their own benefit anyway.
Demons are way more brutal, they don’t really gain pleasure from pain per-se, they also want power, but their approach is way more direct. If they can gain power by killing all those people and bathing in their blood, thay will forcefully do it, not by deceiving the human through a shitty contract, but by forcing their power.
Devils are LE, demons are CE. All in all, evil is the disregard of moral consequences when finding ways to benefit yourself.
Deceiving someone to sign a shitty contract so they now must slave away for you? LE.
Kidnapping someone and forcing them to do stuff to your benefit? CE.
Reaching a fair accord so that you allow people in need to work for you for a fair price, where both parties give a bit so no one is really getting taken advantage off? Either LG or LN depending on the context.
Offering to kill the bad monster that is terrorising the town for free, and disregarding the lucrative offers from it because it’s the right thing to do? Any good alignment.
Any of those people could have desires of harm, it’s how they channel their wants that puts them in different places in the alignment chart.
Not all evil is just about personal gain. That’s way oversimplified. Sure, some is and that can be part of it, but sometimes it isn’t.
Bhaal is the lord of murder, and not usually doing it to gain anything. “Bhaal only lived to hunt and kill, the presence of the living instilling in him an overpowering desire for death and destruction. He was at all times a cruel, violent and hateful being, though his behavior could vary from cold and calculating ruthlessness to a savage thirst for blood.”
Evil is basically desire to do harm or to have power over others (which I’d argue is the same thing). Tyranny is evil because it removes others ability to do what they want, which is harmful. It’s about a desire. A desire to have power over someone, or to harm someone, or to kill someone, etc. Gaining power over someone isn’t the disregard for consequences, it is regarding them and choosing tyranny.
However, good actions also often do this. You kill bad people, imprison criminals, etc. It’s good because you were trying to help/protect someone. Not good would be anything else, which both neutral and evil have to fit in there somewhere. Neutral must be without regard, and evil must be with regard and intent to do the opposite. If not, what is neutral or evil if it’s not those?