I wonder how Israeli historians will remember this. Will they take take position of Germany and grow or US and justify all the shit because “we had to do it, we’re great”
They will deny it. They already making sure to get rid of all journalists and refuse visa for new one.
Is that even possible with amount of records there are? They can kinda delay and twist the truth for a while but not for long.
Doesn’t Turkey still deny they ever did a genocide, too?
Yup. There’s still an outcry any time a foreign parliament declares an acknowledgement of the fact that there was such a thing as the Armenian genocide.
Japan still denies their share of ww2 atrocities, and I believe the US cut a deal with them for the results of those atrocities.
I just hope records are still being maintained. Digital records are fragile if not stored in a cloud.
I’m sorry what? Digital records, ones you can infinitely and cheaply copy and store are fragile? I’ve been seeing this meme come up now and then and I’m seriously perplexed how. People are literally spending billions to digitize stuff because it’s easier to archive 🫣
If it’s distributed properly then yeah. If not then it’s actually easier to get rid of than hard records.
Whatever keep building your strawmen lol
Internationall, it’s a known fact. Of course the current goverment will try to deny it but in some (many) years in a different political context they might acknowledge it… Guess we’ll see.
They’re already saying “we had to do it, we’re great”. It’ll take some government toppling before that tune changes.
it will need a boycott and sanctions on the international level for israelis to change. netty is in power by a coalition of parties that gained voters after this. no consequences, and israelis won’t change their behaviour.
As the rate of Palestinian children killed by Israel to Israelis killed by Hamas surpasses the infamous 10-to-1 of Nazi killings of random villagers in Occupied France in reprisal for German deaths at the hands of the French Resistance, the pro-Israel propagandists are still calling Israeli actions as “defense”.
This is quite consistent with the last couple of decades of Israeli propaganda: Palestinians and even Arabs in general are always portrayed as “violent” (not Hamas or Hezbullah being violent, rather the entire etnical group is painted as “violent”) and follows the playbook from Goebbels and the one generally used by Fascists (not just Nazis, though in terms of rabid racism, the Nazi kind of Fascism is the closest one to the what’s voiced and the acts of the Israeli leadership and their military) were the target etnicity is painted as “violent” and “attacking us”, thus justifying mass murder as “defense” or “protecting ourselves”.
I expect the history they write will be anchored on that fantasy of “defense”, whitewashing the extreme disproportion in deaths -most of which civilians - that would otherwise make it painfully obvious that what’s being done is far beyond “defense”, beyond even the racist kind of “reprisals” (racist because all Palestinians are made to pay for the acts of the tiny fraction of them which is Hamas) and into “ethnic cleansing” territory.
Today’s evidence will be hard to destroy and deny. Cameras and shit.
What a fucking disaster. Netanyahu and Hamas have been quite the blight on mankind
While Hamas is reprehensible and undoubtedly evil, the blood shed by Netanyahu and his policies would make the entire country of Qatar blush.
Forgive my ignorance, but I was always wondering why is it such a faux pau to show support to Palestine? From how I understand it, and that may be wrong, hence the question, the regular Palestinian people are occupied not only by Israel on the outside, but also by a terrorist group, HAMAS, at home. Which is basically a dictatorship, thats not afraid to openly use terror tactics. It’s a lose-lose situation, and the only thing you can do is hope youre not going to be one of the 1/100 that dies to a random strike.
When there are innocent people in a situation like that, the least we can do is show them some support.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war? I feel like in missing something, because the backslash to people who show an ounce of support for Palestine is massive, and I don’t really get why. I just want regular people who aren’t terrorists to live at peace :(
It’s manufactured. The US government unquestionably supports Israel and doesn’t wanna threaten their
remote military baserelationship, so they act to silence dissidents and quench protests, such as by trying to equate criticism of Israel’s government with antisemitism.The problem is that it’s easy for the interested parties to equate it to antisemitism when intermixed with legitimate protest of Israel’s horrendous actions are actual antisemites coopting the conversation for their own purposes. Antisemitism is at it’s highest point in my entire lifetime. Things to note: Muslim Israelis (about 20% of their population) support Israel’s wartime actions at about the same rate as Jewish Israelis. Also, the language used in opposition to, or in support of, Israel in this conflict is different than in comparable one sided wars.
To be clear I want to reiterate that i think what Israel is doing is undeniably awful, but I think antisemitism, and anti Muslim sentiments, color how people interpret and talk about what is happening irrespective of government officials agendas. It’s absolutely part of the conversation whether we like it or not, and we have to navigate that as part of the larger conversation. This isn’t to say I don’t agree with you, it is bullshit to just paint everything as antisemitism.
We also shouldn’t pretend antisemitism is something that just happens. It’s actively promoted be various people for various agendas. For example, the government of Israel directly promotes antisemitism by committing atrocities while claiming to represent all Jews. Then they benefit from it by accusing anyone who opposes them of being antisemitic. Lives of Jewish people are just as expendable as Palestinians to someone like Netanyahu.
Or do majority of people in Palestine actually support HAMAS and the war?
Idk if the majority support Hamas specifically, but most Palestinians support resistance fighters, including Hamas, mostly because peaceful diplomacy with Israel has proven to be impossible.
Imagine 1% of your entire population was destroyed, people keep getting thrown out of homes, critical infrastructure is being destroyed. The world refuses to help and more often than not supports the people doing it to you.
I’m not there, so I couldn’t make an accurate statement. But I’m pretty sure I would be supporting the only people willing to do anything to stop them. The situation is just to dire.
Hamas only exists because peaceful diplomacy with Israel was successful, and leading to a secular Palestinian state and a two state solution.
Hamas only exists because peaceful diplomacy with Israel was successful,
What peaceful diplomacy that lead to what results? The Oslo peace process (which Netanyahu stopped, by the way) only came after the first intifada and that shit was not peaceful.
Is it really a faux-pas? It probably depends on where you live and the people you live amongst. Where I live, it seems like only the extreme right (the successors of the people who helped the nazi’s genocide the Jews) + orthodox Jews support Israel unequivocally. Most others don’t see it as black and white and still consider Palestinians as humans who need hope and prospects, which they’re obviously not getting under Israeli occupation.
The majority of Palestinians in Palestine apparently support Hamas, but it’s likely that they would not be supporting Hamas if Israel had been acting in good faith and not been slowly (a lot faster now obviously, but they were going slowly for years) ethnically cleansing them from Palestine. It’s kinda a chicken and egg situation.
If Rabin had not been murdered by an extremist israeli in 1995, there might have been peace now in those lands, but instead Israel is now being lead by those extremists and they aren’t interested in peace or co-existence.
Coincidentally, there was a recent media event in my country event where a celebrity publicly displayed support for Palestinians.
She had this to say: “Raising a Palestinian flag does NOT mean that I support Hamas or that I hate Jews or that I am okay with innocent civilians - wherever they live - being killed. It means that I want all wars and all genocides to end.” https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/01/08/laura-tesoro-palestijnse-vlag/
Public reactions (in dutch): https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20240107_96484050 The minister Jan Jambon was in his youth a member of the local fascist party and is pretty vocal that he would like his current (more mainstream) party to collaborate in the future with that fascist party. So that he thinks that it is a “faux-pas” to express support for Palestinians, does not surprise me in the least.
Edited because of grammar.
Off course I’d rather live under, and support the dictator terrorists if my other option was genocidal aparthied nazis who force me to live deprived from all freedoms like a caged animal and regularly get bombed.
Yes Hamas is a bad terrorist dictatorship, but they did not kill 1 in every 100 Gazan, and they are only in power because they live in an open-air prison and regularly get bombed by an occupier controlling their food, water, and electricity and keeping them like caged animal.
I mean it is a fact that Hamas has a lot of support at home. They have won elections. This is because they build schools and deliver services at home, and take a defiant stand against Israel. However this all gets collapsed to “Palestinians support terrorism” by the disingenuous, trusting everyone in Gaza with terrorism. I’m NOT saying this is valid - just pointing out how it comes about.
It was at around 14% not too long ago. Although considering the situation, it has probably increased as a result of the relentless bombing campaigns, restrictions of food, water, electricity, and humanitarian aid
I fear when the world will start to ignore Palestine again
It’s already happening.
That started in 1948
What percent of Americans died in the 9/11 attacks? How many 9/11s is this?
Since no one answered your question. I’ll assume you were just curious about the numbers. It’s easy enough to answer.
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
Or perhaps:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
If you do what Israel was doing, you’d need to scale it on per capita basis. So America is about 330 million and the population of Gaza is about 2.3 million. So the population of America is 140 times the size of Gaza. So 1232 or so 9/11’s.
I suppose that makes sense if you want to equate % of civilians. Which is certainly relevant for “how likely it is that I know or am related to someone who was killed”.
Whichever way the numbers are measured, it is absolutely horrific what Israel is, and has been doing for decades.
As this wasn’t a terrorist attack, a closer analogue is a recent war.
One estimate puts civilian casualties in the Battle of Mosul at around 40,000
I’d be willing to bet good money that this is pretty fucking terrorising to the people who live in Gaza.
It’s also predictable to see your username on every post about Israel doing evil shit. Always taking the apologetic tone. Not to wrap myself in tinfoil, but, you wouldn’t be part of some propaganda machinery, right? Perhaps just a sucker for one?
Oh, and where were we on the “Do you condemn Israel for its genocide”? Ifs and buts, still, I presume?
I’d be willing to bet good money that this is pretty fucking terrorising to the people who live in Gaza.
This is not, in fact, the definition of terrorism.
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Here’s a fun follow up.
Do you think Israel is justified when by the IDF own admission 2 out of every 3 people they kill are civilians and over 50% of the population in Gaza is under 18?
What do you feel about the new acronym that has come out of this, WCNSF?
Understandable that genocide is a sticky term to use, will you admit what they are doing is crimes against humanity?
That sounds like terrorism to me - the unlawful violence against civilians for political reasons.
Terrorism doesn’t mean “scary thing.”
It means a lot of things to a lot of people, in a lot of contexts. There are more than 250 definitions used in academic literature. More interestingly, it’s consistently used by people with significant bias, and inability to understand it from the perspective of “the enemy”. It is a word, after all.
Now, king of the red herring fallacy of which you are, I’ll just point out that when a state commits war crimes against a civilian population, it’s reasonably well accepted to be considered as “state terrorism”. But, I’m sure you’ll regally conjure a ignoratio elenchi response.
Not that this ever was a bar needed to pass in order to answer the rather simple question posed. So, to get back to where you sidetracked off from:
Around 23k civilians in Gaza have been killed by Israel since October 7th. On 9/11 2001, around 2.6k were killed in those attacks. So, around 8.8 “worth” of 9/11s.
Given 94 days since October 7th, it would be a “9/11 amount of civilian casualties” every 10.6 days.
But why not use a different unit of measurement. How about:
A “Hamas October 7th” every 5 days. For over 3 months straight.
But hey, it isn’t terrorism if it’s genocide, right? But, you’re not sure about that last part. Perhaps it’s not systematic enough to check that box? After all, it’s not like they’re carpet bombing a region with a population density twice that of of San Fransisco, of which half are children. Given the average of 10 civilians killed per Israeli airstrike. There is some randomness for it to not be on-the-nose genocide, but not too much randomness to be obvious acts of terrorism. Just that pleasantly tempered amount of killing of children to argue in bad faith.
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of intentional violence and fear to achieve political or ideological aims. The term is used in this regard primarily to refer to intentional violence during peacetime or in the context of war against non-combatants (mostly civilians and neutral military personnel)
Sure seems to fit the wiki description at least
“Kurdish intelligence believes that over 40,000 civilians have been killed as a result of massive firepower used against them, especially by the federal police, air strikes and Isis itself,” Mr Zebari added. Mr Zebari, a native of Mosul and top Kurdish official who has served as the Iraqi finance minister and prior to that foreign minister, emphasised in an exclusive interview that the unrelenting artillery bombardment by units of the Iraqi federal police, in practice a heavily armed military unit, had caused immense destruction and loss of life in west Mosul.
40k dead in around 9 months, largely from bombing campaigns
Israel is at around 23k dead in around 4 months, not yet including the potential dead under all the rubble from the residential areas, hospitals, and schools being bombed. Also not including those who will die of dehydration, starvation, and disease due to Israel artificially restricting food, water, electricity, fuel, and humanitarian aid.
These are also two different situations. Do you think Israel is an apartheid state?
My sympathy for Israel is pretty much gone now.
They definitely got played like a fiddle and did exactly what their enemies wanted them to do.
The ripple effects of this genocide is going to ruin their ability to have normal state relations and any semblance of security for generations.
Israel lost the long game, because they reacted and failed to choose to respond.
This is really weird phrasing that pretends that Israel has no responsibility for their actions.
They chose to do this, they are responsible for what they’ve done.
Let me be clear. Israel is fully responsible. They were an obvious mark for manipulation (this is Israel’s fault). Because of this, an adversary provoked them, and successfully goaded them into making a genocidal blunder. Also Israel’s fault.
The Israeli government is unhinged, hateful and fascist and those qualities were leveraged by an adversary. It’s an absolute embarrassment.
Let me just clarify that this is my sympathy for the State of Israel that I’m talking about, not my attitude toward Jewish people in general who have nothing to do with this.
Germany was so much more efficient, take pointers you hypocrits
Germany killed 60% of European Jews between 1933 and 1945, which is 5% per year or 1.25% every three months.
Israel has killed 1% of Gaza’s population in three months, and if they maintain current pace will be at 4% per year.
So they’re 80% as efficient if they sustain the current rate. Not a huge discrepancy.
What is Israel supposed to do? I’m genuinely asking. I’m not implying what they have done is what should’ve happened but I’m genuinely puzzled what the imagined alternative would have been. You don’t react to Hamas’s attack by packing up your shit and leaving. You don’t respond to it by asking what your enemy would like you to do differently so that this doesn’t happen again. You retaliate. It’s blatantly obvious that’s what you do especially since they have a superior military. How do you retaliate? That is the question I’d like answered. What is a reasonable and justifiable retaliation to their act?
If you catch a kid throwing rocks at windows you don’t shoot them or punch them in the face but you don’t pat them on the head either and give them candy. There are better and worse ways to deal with it here.
You legitimately target Hamas with actual precision attacks. If they’re hiding under a hospital, you go down there and deal with them, you don’t bomb the fucking hospital.
Have they bombed a hospital?
How do you “go down there” exactly? You just walk in and ask where the entrance is? Your solution is quite vague.
if they know its there they’ll know how people get in and out of it.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-killing-children-in-gaza
Not just that, they blew off the head of a 12 year old girl that was lying in a hospital with a tank shot.
That girl was lying in that hospital because she got her leg amputated and her entire family killed in an israeli airstrike.
Yes. It was major worldwide news reported by every MSM outlet.
You’re speaking of the incident when a rocket hit Al-Alhi hospital’s parking lot? That is not example of Israel bombing a hospital. It’s quite universally agreed it was a rogue hamas rocket.
Given the level of knowledge you just displayed it appears to be you who is quite vague, what he said was perfectly clear to most of us
I’m only finding articles for the Al-Ahli incident so that’s why I’m asking. I’m not aware of Israel bombing any hospitals but I’m sure you can educate me.
How do you retaliate? That is the question I’d like answered. What is a reasonable and justifiable retaliation to their act?
Retaliation is in the first place a wrong answer, because Hamas’s whole existence is retaliation to Israel’s aggression against Palestinians.
This in no shape or form answers my question and is exactly what’s frustrating about the situation. I only hear critizism but never solutions.
They’re intentionally not answering your question because they find your question invalid and asked in bad faith.
No that was the solution. Prisoner deal and then build a two state solution if they were willing.
But they are not willing. The israelis are Nazis. The only party that is closed to negotiation is israel.
Israel is definitely open to negotiation and has made efforts for peace, by allowing Palestinians to work in Israel. Israel has complete economic and military superiority over Palestine/Hamas, and if they really wanted to, they could literally turn Palestine into a beach. But they won’t, because that’s not their goal, unlike Hamas, and many Arab countries, would love nothing more than the genocide of the Jews.
Tell that with a straight face to people in the west bank.
Israel is definitely open to negotiation and has made efforts for peace,
What negotiation? Remember 2013?
Politically obviously there’s not going to be electoral punishment in Israel for killing people who cant vote in your elections. This isnt even about retaliation its about retaliation theater. Obviously the people they’re killing mostly had nothing to do with the attacks.
They could drop less bombs but it seems like the Israeli army is understaffed and they’re unwilling to conscript their yahoo settlers and take them away from harassing the west bank to send them to gaza where at least they might kill less children than the neighborhood leveling air strikes.
If the weapon supply line were threatened to be cut off, Israeli politicians would reluctantly dial down the genocide and they’ve even suggested as much. But so far it hasn’t happened yet because whoever stops this will be blamed for the next terror attack (and there will 100% be another one) and will become enemy #1 in Israel.
So Joe Biden is cowardly hoping some european countries decide to do something so he doesn’t become the guy who pisses off the Imperial outpost in the middle east.
They could do literally anything other than indiscriminate artillery and bombing campaigns. They target hospitals, schools, and refugee camps and you ask “what else are they supposed to do?”
Considering Gaza is inside of Israel technically, and Israeli intelligence is some of the best and most funded in the entire world, the IDF should have a very clear understanding of where Hamas militants are.
The IDF is equipped with all of the latest American toys. They know how to find people that don’t want to be found. They’re just doing genocide.
What is this hospital bombing everyone is talking about? Every single article I’m finding is about the Al-Alhi incident.
How do you know they are indiscriminately bombing? How do you know they purposefully targeting civilians hospitals and schools? We’re not talking about Hamas here, which openly has been doing that constantly, for decades. With child suicide bombers mind you.
About 1500 people were killed or taken hostage by Hamas. That attack was horrific and wrong, and sadly Israel has done their best to ensure that their response is equally horrific and wrong. Because their idea of morality is to be equivalent to Hamas, while telling you Hamas is evil. Their thinking is so far up their own asses on this.
Fuck “equally wrong”. They’ve been marching way ahead since before 1949.
IDF has been leading the pack for quite sometime
Genocide Joe going full steam ahead with this through the election. Let’s see how well the Democrats can do winning the Nazi vote.
You think the Trump and the Republicans will be any better?
I see this argument a lot, and I am absolutely a hardliner on genocide. That said, I am also aware that a second Trump presidency will be the end of our nation as we know it. It used to be so simple when voting for candidates - it was “evil” vs “more of the same”, but now it’s “evil” vs “genocide as a foreign policy.”
What is the exit strategy for us as a nation? How many times can we stave off a Republican presidency? Even voting blue we are slipping right - how many times can we vote for the Democrats until we’ve made so many concessions that the blue guy is just exactly equivalent to the current red guy?
I’m really trying to argue in good faith. If someone has a decent answer to this, I’d love to hear their side. Otherwise it seems to me like we are headed for some kind of civil war in this country.
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Sigh.
Gaza is under occupation by Israel, according to almost every NGO that matters, including the UN. The war has been going on since 1970.
And before you call it “the biggest massacre of Jews since the holocaust” ask the IDF how many Jews they killed between October 7th and 9th.
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Gotta ask the UN, but stop the blockade for instance. The blockade which started in 2005, not 2007, by the way.
Maybe if Hamas would stop making bombs and rockets out of literally anything they can get their hands on, in order to indiscriminately bomb Israel, they’d be more open to lifting the blockade.
Yeah, like what happened in 2008, where during the ceasefire that required Israel to lift the blockade they explicitly stated they intended to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse?
Did they?
Uh… Yes. It’s literally right there on Wikipedia. It’s not a secret.
They literally have a strip of land inside Gaza that they shoot people for entering. That’s a child’s definition of de-occupation.
Oh yes. It’s always the Palestinians “starting” it. Don’t mind the settlers, the Palestinians arrested and held for years without trial, the random house searches by the IDF, the protestors shot by snipers, the blockade that’s been in place for decades, or anything else.
It’s always their fault, you just have to ignore everything Israel has been doing, right back to the initial terrorist campaign against the British soldiers.
A lot of those dead people probably didn’t actually start the war.
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Is Biden an idiot for blindly supporting Israel? Yes.
But every fucking President since Truman has done the exact same thing … including Trump.
So sit down and shut up already.
Uh… No. Biden is uniquely horrible in this. He’s going above and beyond what most other non-Trump presidents would do.
Yet Palestinian support for the Hamas terrorists just continues to grow. So weird thinking it’s 2024, and they’re having a fucking religious war over there.
That’s because they believe that Hamas’s attack on Oct 7 was in retaliation for Israel’s prior actions while Israel is using Oct 7 to retaliate against all of Palestine. Palestinians are going to support the side that is not bombing them and that they believe is standing up to the persecution they’ve experienced up until and including now.
“Ukraine: It’s Not ‘Retaliation’ When You’re Fighting for National Survival”
I just saw this title on lemmy underneath this post.
You’d have to be a fucking moron to believe that bombing Palestinian civilians would make them support Hamas less.
We already went over this in WW2. Mass murdering civilians doesn’t break them, it actually increases their resolve. It’s obvious Israel doesn’t give a shit about destroying Hamas since they’re choosing to ignore 80 years of lessons in counterinsurgency warfare.
If someone kills your wife, you aren’t going to think “well gee maybe I should get along with her murderers now”. You’re going to look for revenge or justice, and the only people offering anything close to that in Palestine are Hamas.
Sort of justifies what Israel is doing to Gaza in response to Hamas going after civilians. Oh, but not that way, right?
Israel is the one with the power to stop. They’ve been committing acts of war against Palestinians and a slow rolling genocide for decades. The natives forming a resistance group does not justify the actions of the colonists.
I love the rhetoric on here. It’s fascinating.
Crack a history book. The side with less power never stops for being oppressed. It’s not in the human psyche. And oppressors claiming victimhood the entire way through a genocide is the number one excuse for commiting a genocide.
Your language choices continue to fascinate. It’s like a college freshman starting to realize there is a wider world out there and thinking their insight is unique.
Funny. Considering I’ve probably got quite a bit more education on the subject. After having fought in a war it was an intersection of particular interest at college. But you go on with the Ad Hominems.
you would think this wouldn’t need to be explained so much, eh?
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I didn’t know sucking dick was such a crime.
It is when nations do it. When adults do it it’s less so.
This is to be expected. The past ~20 years has been very bad for diplomacy with Israel. When it Israel actually engages in diplomacy with it’s Palestinian population the population Hamas plummets.
do you have a source with dates for this?
Well duh. What did you think would happen? That they start loving Israel?
You can’t beat people to stop hating you.
You have to realize. They are literally idiots.
They’re in prison, being fed propaganda with no future, too many kids, too many problems no education. It’s hardly their choice unfortunately.
We need to feel pity not contempt.
I agree with you, with the exception that Palestinians are actually known for being a well-educated population.
Being educated and supporting Hamas just doesn’t compute. Even if you are politically brain damaged to think the only solution to Israel problem is to kick every jew out Hamas is so incredibly incompetent that no one with a single brain cell could possible support this organization.
Being educated and supporting Trump just doesn’t compute. Even if you are politcally brain damaged to think the only solution to America’s problem is to kick every Mexican out Trump is so incredibly incompetent that no one with a single brain cell could possibly support him.
being educated and being Clarence Thomas doesn’t compute either but the world is in an absolute fuckhole state, there’s no hand on the till and the rich are just making sure they’ve got all of theirs so they can hold out as long as possible against the zombie apocalypse, which will just be hungry people. That’s the real dark side to such stories.
They could have stopped it but they’re just choosing to hunker down and not give a shit, and they will die just like the rest of us because of it
My point stands.
No it doesn’t. It’s a weird jump in logic that makes no sense. The commenter above you even gave you a US example of the same way of thinking. There are plenty of educated people voting for conservatives in the US. They aren’t “idiots” as you’ve put it.
Why do you think they aren’t “idiots”? I’d argue that they very well are :)
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