I’m headed to the weekly burner event this evening. The sheer proportion of trans folks defies statistical probability. There’s one regular couple where both transitioned and … I guess they look like a heteronormative couple from across the produce section?
I will be the first to admit that despite being fully supportive of others’ life decisions, I still regularly slip and use the wrong pronouns. It’s very difficult to unlearn decades of gender expectations, despite having learned in 1999 on W Marginal Way SW that the only thing you should assume is everyone is bi.
Trans wasn’t quite yet a thing in the rave scene, and while I get that transitioning has gotten younger and younger with dysphoria being more recognized, at that time, no one was doing so at 14. Thanks to the draconian Teen Dance Ordinance and then the All-Ages Dance Ordinance that Seattle passed, there were literally two venues in town that could host events for anyone under 21.
Meaning that these venues were basically blocking curious teens from learning from more experienced community members, which was already being called “grooming” instead of mentoring. It was a terrible time to experience the realization that something was wrong without any resources.
If you are an ally, as I think you at least want to be, this can’t be the response. You did, in fact, respond to a post about trans visibility with a long rambling post about yourself. The response to being told that this isn’t the place for it was again, egocentric defensiveness.
An ally who is an ally until they’re challenged at which point they wave their ally flag around in indignation is not an ally. What you’re doing here is using other people’s queerness, people who are not you, to push back against queer people daring to challenge your unconsidered sense of entitlement to queer spaces and identity.
Do you realize how common this is? Do you know how many people will casually make a transphobic joke and then chew out trans people who take exception to it while insisting that they have trans friends so it’s okay? You deigning to be friends with trans people doesn’t mean you should stop listening to trans people.
I believe your heart is on the right place, and would risk the same for your convictions, but analyse from a practical point of view. Is the discussion dominating this post on topic or off topic? When should arguments have stopped in name of be(e)ing nice?
I wrote one comment and was content to leave it there. The only reason the conversation has dragged on is that I had no right to participate on a public forum.
I’ve been engaged in activism for quite some time, and the reactions I got increasingly irritated by are exactly how you kill sympathy for your cause. Engage. Educate. Telling people they shouldn’t even be there by the trans community is so tone-deaf that I’m having trouble following how the vitriol advances the movement.
I’m trying to help. I’m trying to explain how organizing and building a community works, and I keep being told that being cis means I have nothing to contribute. It’s sort of devolved into vegans attacking vegetarians for cruelty. Neither eats meat, yet they focus on their differences instead of realizing they have the same ethics, just draw lines differently.
Cool, well after one of the hardest weeks of my life because of my identity, I really feel helped coming into a thread about TDoV and seeing 50% of the comments being dominated by a cis man talking down to trans people.
And I was even polite, offered a neutral explanation, and you still attacked me.
Seems like you have a real big chip on your shoulder about the trans community.
Dude, I wasn’t saying you aren’t supportive enough. Just, that you are taking up too much space! This day is (was) literally meant to be a celebration of trans people and their struggles and you try to make it about yourself. So yes, it would be exactly the right occasion to for one day validate us. And if you don’t want to, then just shut up.
I think there’s a misunderstanding about the intent here. Asking for space on TDoV isn’t meant as an attack, but as a boundary. Support shouldn’t be conditional on a community being perfectly polite while they’re asking to be heard. Telling a marginalized group they aren’t doing themselves any favors by setting boundaries on their own visibility day feels more like a lecture than allyship.
That’s a false equivalent, Black History Month is a full month, TDoV is one day.
No one is suggesting a total ban on speech. We’re pointing out the difference between participating in a conversation and directing it. The goal of a day like TDoV is for trans people to be the subject of the conversation, rather than the audience for someone else’s memories.
You’re still saying your supporters have no right to a voice unless they’re exactly like you. That is a very slippery slope, since, ostensibly, the point of a day of awareness is to promote conversation. That’s exactly the sort of argument people make to oppose trans rights in the first place.
I’m headed to the weekly burner event this evening. The sheer proportion of trans folks defies statistical probability. There’s one regular couple where both transitioned and … I guess they look like a heteronormative couple from across the produce section?
I will be the first to admit that despite being fully supportive of others’ life decisions, I still regularly slip and use the wrong pronouns. It’s very difficult to unlearn decades of gender expectations, despite having learned in 1999 on W Marginal Way SW that the only thing you should assume is everyone is bi.
Trans wasn’t quite yet a thing in the rave scene, and while I get that transitioning has gotten younger and younger with dysphoria being more recognized, at that time, no one was doing so at 14. Thanks to the draconian Teen Dance Ordinance and then the All-Ages Dance Ordinance that Seattle passed, there were literally two venues in town that could host events for anyone under 21.
Meaning that these venues were basically blocking curious teens from learning from more experienced community members, which was already being called “grooming” instead of mentoring. It was a terrible time to experience the realization that something was wrong without any resources.
This is about trans visibility and you make it all about yourself and your anecdotes :(
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This is not okay.
If you are an ally, as I think you at least want to be, this can’t be the response. You did, in fact, respond to a post about trans visibility with a long rambling post about yourself. The response to being told that this isn’t the place for it was again, egocentric defensiveness.
An ally who is an ally until they’re challenged at which point they wave their ally flag around in indignation is not an ally. What you’re doing here is using other people’s queerness, people who are not you, to push back against queer people daring to challenge your unconsidered sense of entitlement to queer spaces and identity.
Do you realize how common this is? Do you know how many people will casually make a transphobic joke and then chew out trans people who take exception to it while insisting that they have trans friends so it’s okay? You deigning to be friends with trans people doesn’t mean you should stop listening to trans people.
It’s not okay. You can do better.
I believe your heart is on the right place, and would risk the same for your convictions, but analyse from a practical point of view. Is the discussion dominating this post on topic or off topic? When should arguments have stopped in name of be(e)ing nice?
I wrote one comment and was content to leave it there. The only reason the conversation has dragged on is that I had no right to participate on a public forum.
I’ve been engaged in activism for quite some time, and the reactions I got increasingly irritated by are exactly how you kill sympathy for your cause. Engage. Educate. Telling people they shouldn’t even be there by the trans community is so tone-deaf that I’m having trouble following how the vitriol advances the movement.
I’m trying to help. I’m trying to explain how organizing and building a community works, and I keep being told that being cis means I have nothing to contribute. It’s sort of devolved into vegans attacking vegetarians for cruelty. Neither eats meat, yet they focus on their differences instead of realizing they have the same ethics, just draw lines differently.
“I’m trying to help.”
Cool, well after one of the hardest weeks of my life because of my identity, I really feel helped coming into a thread about TDoV and seeing 50% of the comments being dominated by a cis man talking down to trans people.
And I was even polite, offered a neutral explanation, and you still attacked me.
Seems like you have a real big chip on your shoulder about the trans community.
That’s extrapolation from personal belief. I have no such chip; all I asked for was being allowed a seat at the table, which was vehemently declined.
Dude, I wasn’t saying you aren’t supportive enough. Just, that you are taking up too much space! This day is (was) literally meant to be a celebration of trans people and their struggles and you try to make it about yourself. So yes, it would be exactly the right occasion to for one day validate us. And if you don’t want to, then just shut up.
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I take back my previous comment about you trying to be an ally. This attitude is hostile to trans people. Wake the fuck up.
Your anecdotes are cute but I think you’re kinda missing the point where it’s very explicitly about trans voices.
With friends like you who needs enemies?
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Read what I said again, slower, and ask yourself why asking for a space for our voices to be heard feels like an attack to you.
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I think there’s a misunderstanding about the intent here. Asking for space on TDoV isn’t meant as an attack, but as a boundary. Support shouldn’t be conditional on a community being perfectly polite while they’re asking to be heard. Telling a marginalized group they aren’t doing themselves any favors by setting boundaries on their own visibility day feels more like a lecture than allyship.
Wtf? Are you trying to berate us how to fight for our rights now?
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Siiiiiiiiiiiigh
Why are the cis like this
By this logic, anyone who isn’t Black shouldn’t talk for all of Black History Month. It’s an absurd expectation.
That’s a false equivalent, Black History Month is a full month, TDoV is one day.
No one is suggesting a total ban on speech. We’re pointing out the difference between participating in a conversation and directing it. The goal of a day like TDoV is for trans people to be the subject of the conversation, rather than the audience for someone else’s memories.
You’re still saying your supporters have no right to a voice unless they’re exactly like you. That is a very slippery slope, since, ostensibly, the point of a day of awareness is to promote conversation. That’s exactly the sort of argument people make to oppose trans rights in the first place.