Just a small correction. The Holocaust refers specifically to the Nazi genocide against Jews. They also conducted other genocides. None of the others were anywhere near the scale of the Holocaust.
It is estimated that 15000 LGBT victims were killed by the Nazis
You may be comfortable erasing the genocide of 6 million people by saying only the Jewish victims should be counted.
Personally I am not. Lots of people aren’t.
But yes, for decades Israel has led a movement to ignore every other group that was targeted by the Nazis so they can claim they’re the only victims of it
You’re absolutely right on one count - I was missing a zero (fixed). For that I apologize on behalf of their memory.
However, the Holocaust is the accepted term for the genocide against the Jewish people. It is not the only genocide the Nazis carried out, such as that against the Sinti and Roma, but it was the largest in scale by far. These are factual statements, agreed on by all experts.
For example, the Wikipedia article you cite reads:
While the term Holocaust generally refers to the systematic mass-murder of the Jewish people in German-occupied Europe, the Nazis also murdered a large number of non-Jewish people
I’m not sure how scholars calculate the number homosexual men who were killed, but I believe it does not include those who were killed because they were Jewish. It is apparently not well known how many lesbians or trans people were killed, although it is documented that they were sent to death camps.
They’re not saying only Jews should be counted. They’re stating a fact that the Holocaust refers to the genocide of Jews by Germany. From your own Wikipedia link click on “The holocaust” and you can see the definition right there. Under it you can find where “The term Holocaust is sometimes used to also refer to the persecution of these other groups.” As in: this isn’t what it technically means, but people sometimes say this. Sort of like Kleenex when you mean tissue. Or dumpster when you mean waste receptacle.
That didn’t start till the late 1970s and was because of a Meryl Streep movie…
Yet for decades after the war, the genocide lacked any formal title in English except, perhaps, “The Final Solution,” the term the Nazis used. In Hebrew, the calamity quickly became known as “Shoah,” which means “the catastrophe.” But it wasn’t until the 1960s that scholars and writers began using the term “Holocaust,” and it took the 1978 TV film Holocaust, starring Meryl Streep, to push it into widespread use.
Only if you assume that 15k number was every single LGBTQ person in the 12 million.
Like, you all are aware that a person could be in multiple demographics that were targeted…
Right?
If you were openly LGBTQ, you stood out as a target. But you may have been officially sent to the camps under another label.
So yes, 15k out of 12 million isnt a lot.
But saying the other 11,985,000 were 100% heterosexual just seems a little ridiculous, right?
Just normal variation, there’s gonna be a few.
But also wouldn’t you assume that a lot of LGBTQ people were also aligned with leftwing political parties who were prioritized as targets over everyone else.
Like, just slow down for a second and think it thru
Just a small correction. The Holocaust refers specifically to the Nazi genocide against Jews. They also conducted other genocides. None of the others were anywhere near the scale of the Holocaust.
It is estimated that 15000 LGBT victims were killed by the Nazis
You may be comfortable erasing the genocide of 6 million people by saying only the Jewish victims should be counted.
Personally I am not. Lots of people aren’t.
But yes, for decades Israel has led a movement to ignore every other group that was targeted by the Nazis so they can claim they’re the only victims of it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
And your “estimate” is so low I didn’t even bother to see what site it’s from.
Estimates are between 5k and 15k
On top of that, I’m assuming you’re only counting victims where LGBT was the main cause, not every victim that was LGBT.
Like, do you think there wasn’t a single Jewish victim who also was LGBT?
You’re absolutely right on one count - I was missing a zero (fixed). For that I apologize on behalf of their memory.
However, the Holocaust is the accepted term for the genocide against the Jewish people. It is not the only genocide the Nazis carried out, such as that against the Sinti and Roma, but it was the largest in scale by far. These are factual statements, agreed on by all experts.
For example, the Wikipedia article you cite reads:
I’m not sure how scholars calculate the number homosexual men who were killed, but I believe it does not include those who were killed because they were Jewish. It is apparently not well known how many lesbians or trans people were killed, although it is documented that they were sent to death camps.
They’re not saying only Jews should be counted. They’re stating a fact that the Holocaust refers to the genocide of Jews by Germany. From your own Wikipedia link click on “The holocaust” and you can see the definition right there. Under it you can find where “The term Holocaust is sometimes used to also refer to the persecution of these other groups.” As in: this isn’t what it technically means, but people sometimes say this. Sort of like Kleenex when you mean tissue. Or dumpster when you mean waste receptacle.
That didn’t start till the late 1970s and was because of a Meryl Streep movie…
https://newrepublic.com/article/121807/when-holocaust-became-holocaust
And yes, like I said…
So what does it matter what the publicly edited Wikipedia defines it as?
1978 isnt ancient Pompeii, we have records of what it was like, lots of people lived thru it and are still alive.
Why pretend?
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Only if you assume that 15k number was every single LGBTQ person in the 12 million.
Like, you all are aware that a person could be in multiple demographics that were targeted…
Right?
If you were openly LGBTQ, you stood out as a target. But you may have been officially sent to the camps under another label.
So yes, 15k out of 12 million isnt a lot.
But saying the other 11,985,000 were 100% heterosexual just seems a little ridiculous, right?
Just normal variation, there’s gonna be a few.
But also wouldn’t you assume that a lot of LGBTQ people were also aligned with leftwing political parties who were prioritized as targets over everyone else.
Like, just slow down for a second and think it thru
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