I feel like sometimes people refuse to “meta game” in a way that is also metagaming, except targeting bad outcomes instead of good.
Like your characters live in a world with trolls. They’re not a secret. Choosing to intentionally avoid fire because “that’s metagaming” is also metagaming. You’re using your out of character knowledge (fire is effective) and then avoiding it.
Usually cleared up with a "hey dm, what are common knowledge and myths about this stuff? or whatever.
Eh, I know nothing about how to handle most dangerous animals, even ones that live in my area; I’d imagine that even in a world with trolls, regular people wouldn’t know anything about them.
If your character is a seasoned adventurer or monster enthusiast, sure, light it up, but if your backstory places you as the village baker for most of your life, running in with alchemist’s fire at the ready seems a bit strange.
Ultimately I’d consider it to be on the GM’s shoulders - if the only way your group is going to survive the troll encounter is with fire, then put an NPC in the local tavern who warms newcomers of a troll in the area, recommending that they have a lit torch at the ready.
Most people know about sucking venom from a snakebite, even if they’re not clear on details. They also know you probably don’t want to wave a red cape in front of a bull.
Those are both great examples of why a character might try to throw anti-troll paste (tar) at trolls.
spoiler
A red cape doesn’t mean anything different than a black cape to a bull, and sucking venom from a snakebite isn’t a thing outside of movies. It won’t hurt, but it won’t do much good either. One myth that will cause damage is putting ice on a pit viper bite though, so remember to avoid doing that.
Funny that you use those examples, since they’re both wrong. If anything, we should be running at the trolls with stinky socks because someone wanted to sound smart at a bar once and made up a factoid that spread like wildfire among the common folk.
Eh, I know nothing about how to handle most dangerous animals, even ones that live in my area; I’d imagine that even in a world with trolls, regular people wouldn’t know anything about them.
Debatable. You definitely know a Tigers greatest weakness, and a bears greatest weakness even if you don’t know how to use them. >!Bullets!<
Id say that we don’t know those things now because we live in modern technological times where you don’t have to know those things to survive. If this was the middle ages and you were an adventuring type who could hold their own out in the wilds, you would almost definitely know all of those things.
You have other people to manage wildlife, often times, and are probably not likely to encounter said animals. If you are then you know to carry bear spray, for example.
Now imagine you’re in a world where bandits on the road are threat you actually have to consider. Trolls might live down the road and your town sends out memos saying “if you see these signs, run, and if you absolutely must then fire is the only thing that will be effective.” It’s perfectly plausible, you just need to be the littlest bit creative/steal stuff like wildlife advisories from the real world.
You don’t even need an NPC. My first character was a sorceror who didn’t know what he could cast but his will, muscle-memory, and being in certain situations brought it out of him. Any “puzzle fight” should have enough room for players/characters to realize there’s a problem and the discover the solution. You can’t plan ahead, maybe, but there’s no reason you can’t have one roleplay turn and then “get lucky” choosing a fire spell next to see what happens.
Yes. It’s so annoying. A lot of good roleplaying is imagining a way your character would have/know something. Obviously you can take it too far, but it’s an important skills for keeping the game moving. Like, say one character is obviously falling for some sort of trap by a doppelganger. OOC you either know or are suspicious, but IC you don’t. You want to go with them so they aren’t alone. But you can’t just say that. Say something like, “I’ll tag along, I’m getting stir crazy and could go for a walk.” It’s technically metagaming but it’s a very different situation than doing something like telling that character not to go because the other person is suspicious when you genuinely have no reason to think they are.
Another good example of metagaming that so many people view as okay that they don’t even view it as metagaming is telling your party OOC how many hit points you have remaining the healer choosing who to heal and with what spells based on the information. Your character doesn’t know that number. A lot of times all you really know IC is if someone has less than half of their hit points remaining and a vague idea that barbarians can take more hits than wizards.
Obviously there are scenarios where this doesn’t hold but I find in general that metagaming which benefits everyone, doesn’t completely ruin encounters, and is done with an excuse that your character would actually reasonably do is typically okay.
Another example. I remember in one game we were trying to open a creaky rusty door quietly. Someone asked if anyone had oil. We all checked our inventory and nobody did. He explained that my character in heavy armor would likely have some because regular maintenance of it would require that. Which seemed fine. The DM agreed. So my character hands his character some oil.
It’s funny. I know a lot of players who think like you, but I and many others go in the completely opposite direction. The tension in my combat encounters has increased significantly since my group and I started to only give vague health info. Suddenly, it’s a surprise agin when a character goes down and you can almost feel the tension every round when another hidden death save is rolled!
Combat damage is random and it’s still dramatic and exciting knowing everyone’s health. I think hiding death saves is better than hiding health though. Because in reality everyone would act super urgently seeing a friend collapse. When I’m DMing I explicitly say when things are bloodied (less than ½) and double bloodied (less than ¼) in addition to qualitative explanations.
I think there are numbers worth hiding, I just don’t think character health is one. Like I think stealth rolls should be hidden. You shouldn’t have an idea that you’re not hiding well.
Like I think stealth rolls should be hidden. You shouldn’t have an idea that you’re not hiding well.
I don’t have the players actually make the stealth roll until something opposes it. They’re doing the best they can. Here comes the guard. Roll, please.
I feel like sometimes people refuse to “meta game” in a way that is also metagaming, except targeting bad outcomes instead of good.
Like your characters live in a world with trolls. They’re not a secret. Choosing to intentionally avoid fire because “that’s metagaming” is also metagaming. You’re using your out of character knowledge (fire is effective) and then avoiding it.
Usually cleared up with a "hey dm, what are common knowledge and myths about this stuff? or whatever.
Eh, I know nothing about how to handle most dangerous animals, even ones that live in my area; I’d imagine that even in a world with trolls, regular people wouldn’t know anything about them.
If your character is a seasoned adventurer or monster enthusiast, sure, light it up, but if your backstory places you as the village baker for most of your life, running in with alchemist’s fire at the ready seems a bit strange.
Ultimately I’d consider it to be on the GM’s shoulders - if the only way your group is going to survive the troll encounter is with fire, then put an NPC in the local tavern who warms newcomers of a troll in the area, recommending that they have a lit torch at the ready.
Most people know about sucking venom from a snakebite, even if they’re not clear on details. They also know you probably don’t want to wave a red cape in front of a bull.
Those are both great examples of why a character might try to throw anti-troll paste (tar) at trolls.
spoiler
A red cape doesn’t mean anything different than a black cape to a bull, and sucking venom from a snakebite isn’t a thing outside of movies. It won’t hurt, but it won’t do much good either. One myth that will cause damage is putting ice on a pit viper bite though, so remember to avoid doing that.
Funny that you use those examples, since they’re both wrong. If anything, we should be running at the trolls with stinky socks because someone wanted to sound smart at a bar once and made up a factoid that spread like wildfire among the common folk.
Debatable. You definitely know a Tigers greatest weakness, and a bears greatest weakness even if you don’t know how to use them. >!Bullets!<
Id say that we don’t know those things now because we live in modern technological times where you don’t have to know those things to survive. If this was the middle ages and you were an adventuring type who could hold their own out in the wilds, you would almost definitely know all of those things.
You have other people to manage wildlife, often times, and are probably not likely to encounter said animals. If you are then you know to carry bear spray, for example.
Now imagine you’re in a world where bandits on the road are threat you actually have to consider. Trolls might live down the road and your town sends out memos saying “if you see these signs, run, and if you absolutely must then fire is the only thing that will be effective.” It’s perfectly plausible, you just need to be the littlest bit creative/steal stuff like wildlife advisories from the real world.
You don’t even need an NPC. My first character was a sorceror who didn’t know what he could cast but his will, muscle-memory, and being in certain situations brought it out of him. Any “puzzle fight” should have enough room for players/characters to realize there’s a problem and the discover the solution. You can’t plan ahead, maybe, but there’s no reason you can’t have one roleplay turn and then “get lucky” choosing a fire spell next to see what happens.
Yes. It’s so annoying. A lot of good roleplaying is imagining a way your character would have/know something. Obviously you can take it too far, but it’s an important skills for keeping the game moving. Like, say one character is obviously falling for some sort of trap by a doppelganger. OOC you either know or are suspicious, but IC you don’t. You want to go with them so they aren’t alone. But you can’t just say that. Say something like, “I’ll tag along, I’m getting stir crazy and could go for a walk.” It’s technically metagaming but it’s a very different situation than doing something like telling that character not to go because the other person is suspicious when you genuinely have no reason to think they are.
Another good example of metagaming that so many people view as okay that they don’t even view it as metagaming is telling your party OOC how many hit points you have remaining the healer choosing who to heal and with what spells based on the information. Your character doesn’t know that number. A lot of times all you really know IC is if someone has less than half of their hit points remaining and a vague idea that barbarians can take more hits than wizards.
Obviously there are scenarios where this doesn’t hold but I find in general that metagaming which benefits everyone, doesn’t completely ruin encounters, and is done with an excuse that your character would actually reasonably do is typically okay.
Another example. I remember in one game we were trying to open a creaky rusty door quietly. Someone asked if anyone had oil. We all checked our inventory and nobody did. He explained that my character in heavy armor would likely have some because regular maintenance of it would require that. Which seemed fine. The DM agreed. So my character hands his character some oil.
“Dude, you took a big hit, How’re you feelin’?”
“On a scale of 1 to 57, I’d say I’m about a 35”
It’s funny. I know a lot of players who think like you, but I and many others go in the completely opposite direction. The tension in my combat encounters has increased significantly since my group and I started to only give vague health info. Suddenly, it’s a surprise agin when a character goes down and you can almost feel the tension every round when another hidden death save is rolled!
Combat damage is random and it’s still dramatic and exciting knowing everyone’s health. I think hiding death saves is better than hiding health though. Because in reality everyone would act super urgently seeing a friend collapse. When I’m DMing I explicitly say when things are bloodied (less than ½) and double bloodied (less than ¼) in addition to qualitative explanations.
I think there are numbers worth hiding, I just don’t think character health is one. Like I think stealth rolls should be hidden. You shouldn’t have an idea that you’re not hiding well.
I don’t have the players actually make the stealth roll until something opposes it. They’re doing the best they can. Here comes the guard. Roll, please.
That’s how I did it when I DMed. On the off chance they need to make a check and I don’t want to alert them I just use passive or roll for them.