For total count maybe, but they have never made a distinction between their own soldiers and civilians. They want the 25k number misinterpreted as a civilian death count, and have largely succeeded.
Most of the death toll is women and children (7k and 10k, respectively). Even if you assume all men killed are Hamas fighters, which is not true, that is very high when compared to the attack which triggered the war.
I agree the civilian death toll is outsized, but just to play Devil’s advocate here: Hamas is the group putting out the women and children numbers, and given they don’t make a civilian/soldier distinction they almost certainly are including all soldiers under 18 in the “children” numbers. They want you to picture 10k murdered 6-year-olds, but we don’t actually have a break down by age or child-soldier status. Hopefully we can get some visibility there soon.
There is no need to “play devil’s advocate” - if you believe something, argue for it. If you don’t believe something but think I’m missing something, you can point it out and make a case for why it’s important without being confusing about what you actually believe.
All evidence I have seen is that Hamas does not systematically use child soldiers. We can see the indiscriminate tactics of the IDF; we can put that together with the high death toll to make a reasonable conclusion that vast numbers of civilians have been killed. You’re trying to cast doubt on this idea but the amount of doubt is akin to flicking water from your fingers onto a housefire.
The average age in Gaza is like 17. Do you truly believe Hamas is out checking birth certificates? Statistically, half their forces are minors. Combined with estimates of Hamas military losses, that might make fully half of the 10k dead children Hamas child soldiers. While still horrifying, that meaningfully changes how the reported casualty counts should be interpreted. My point is, and has always been, that interpreting casualty numbers that a militant group releases with clear propaganda intent in a light most favorable to them is at best stupid and at worst willfully ignorant.
interpreting casualty numbers that a militant group releases with clear propaganda intent in a light most favorable to them…
but just said this:
Statistically, half their forces are minors.
Pull the other one. If all you wanted was for people not to interpret casualty numbers “in a light most favourable to Hamas” you’d be acknowledging how high the death toll is while making your point instead of trying to distract from it.
they have never made a distinction between their own soldiers and civilians.
I don’t see why you think that’s a problem - Israel has certainly never made a distinction between Hamas soldiers and Palestinian civilians when they bomb them or slaughter them in the street or fire at them when aid is being given out.
The first casualty of war is truth. We can trust Hamas as much or more than we can trust Israel. I’m not an expert, but I’d imagine we could find 100 instances of misinformation from Israel for every 1 from Hamas just from how much each group puts out.
can we really trust hamass death toll of civilians?
Their numbers have usually aligned pretty well with NGOs estimations and are generally accepted as more or less trustworthy.
For total count maybe, but they have never made a distinction between their own soldiers and civilians. They want the 25k number misinterpreted as a civilian death count, and have largely succeeded.
Most of the death toll is women and children (7k and 10k, respectively). Even if you assume all men killed are Hamas fighters, which is not true, that is very high when compared to the attack which triggered the war.
I agree the civilian death toll is outsized, but just to play Devil’s advocate here: Hamas is the group putting out the women and children numbers, and given they don’t make a civilian/soldier distinction they almost certainly are including all soldiers under 18 in the “children” numbers. They want you to picture 10k murdered 6-year-olds, but we don’t actually have a break down by age or child-soldier status. Hopefully we can get some visibility there soon.
There is no need to “play devil’s advocate” - if you believe something, argue for it. If you don’t believe something but think I’m missing something, you can point it out and make a case for why it’s important without being confusing about what you actually believe.
All evidence I have seen is that Hamas does not systematically use child soldiers. We can see the indiscriminate tactics of the IDF; we can put that together with the high death toll to make a reasonable conclusion that vast numbers of civilians have been killed. You’re trying to cast doubt on this idea but the amount of doubt is akin to flicking water from your fingers onto a housefire.
The average age in Gaza is like 17. Do you truly believe Hamas is out checking birth certificates? Statistically, half their forces are minors. Combined with estimates of Hamas military losses, that might make fully half of the 10k dead children Hamas child soldiers. While still horrifying, that meaningfully changes how the reported casualty counts should be interpreted. My point is, and has always been, that interpreting casualty numbers that a militant group releases with clear propaganda intent in a light most favorable to them is at best stupid and at worst willfully ignorant.
You say this:
but just said this:
Pull the other one. If all you wanted was for people not to interpret casualty numbers “in a light most favourable to Hamas” you’d be acknowledging how high the death toll is while making your point instead of trying to distract from it.
Israel certainly doesn’t make that distinction when they indiscriminately bomb them.
Whataboutism aside, Israel estimates 8k dead Hamas soldiers, so they literally do make a distinction.
I don’t see why you think that’s a problem - Israel has certainly never made a distinction between Hamas soldiers and Palestinian civilians when they bomb them or slaughter them in the street or fire at them when aid is being given out.
Oh is Israel reporting 25k dead Hamas soldiers then?
I welcome you to read Hamas 2017 charter and let me know whether you can trust this organization in any way:
Archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20240112193141/https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/hamas-2017.pdf
The first casualty of war is truth. We can trust Hamas as much or more than we can trust Israel. I’m not an expert, but I’d imagine we could find 100 instances of misinformation from Israel for every 1 from Hamas just from how much each group puts out.
This is a joke right?
I’d put Hamas’ word above Israel’s these days, barely but above.
We’ve all seen what Israel is doing, yet they deny it to our faces.
no