And then kept playing the game without the company for the next 20 years.

Sorry, new here. Still having trouble keeping track of who said what, and who I’m quarreling with.

So you think all hobbits have to be lvl 1 rogues?

Do all hobbits have to be a little rogue? Because in Tolkien’s stories hobbits being stealthy isn’t a skill it’s a species ability.

Magic doesn’t make any sense. lol

It can. My problem was using gentle repose on a severed finger. Looking back it seems like that might not be what you were suggesting. If so my mistake.

My comment was about the plan for gentle repose, but if you’re talking about the resurrection spell it does have text that overcomes this problem, because it regenerates any lost limbs.

A rogue isn’t the best tank, but that again isn’t my argument.

Once those items are removed from the body they become a separate object. Maybe useful in divination, but not touching the body. If this were true the party could just cut off some hair hand it to the cleric and all their touch spells would be infinite range.

Bards wouldn’t exist without rogues. They’re just a symptom of the problem.

This is why I take into account class and background before setting a DC when I run D&D. That’s my back end way to try and apply this subjectivity to skills.

That’s more because Rogue is an oversized bucket that too many things fit into. Conan the Barbarian is often called a thief, is he a rogue too? Of course not, but many of his stories involve him sneaking around and stealing things.

Tolken wasn’t using D&D to write the Hobbit. Rogues didn’t exist. They used fantasy to inform D&D. Bilbo is a commoner, and just because there isn’t a commoner class in the book doesn’t mean anything. Gary says you can be a dragon if you want to. I would strongly disagree that Bilbo is a rogue. What rogue like qualities does he exhibit?

When I say rogues shouldn’t exist I’m talking about AD&D all the way up through the editions to 5th (Haven’t played with the latest updated rules). Each edition had their own attempts at balancing the class, but my take is that the class should have never existed. The game would better off without them.

Im not saying the Rogue is the best at everything. I’m saying the Rogue is good at everything. You can take a class and replicate some of the stuff a rogue can do, but usually that means not being as good at other things. Rogues don’t have to make that choice. That’s why I don’t like rogues. A wizard could be the face and a damage dealer, but they can’t be the tank at the same time even though it’s possible for you to make a tank wizard. A ranger can be good at stealth and fighting, but that would probably make them a bad face. With each other class there is a trade off. Rogues as a class are a bunch of desperate parts slapped together and called a class.

When you break it down D&D is a loop of talking to things, exploring, killing things, and stealing. A bad class is only good at one of those things, AKA ranger. While a good class is good at three of those things, AKA a bard. Rogues are good at all of those things without sacrificing anything.

Sure it’s nice to be able to do everything, but that has warped the game loop into making rogues unusually useful compared to the other classes. Rogues can be the skill monkey, the face, the front line fighter, and the trap guy all while not having the ability score crunch of a class like monk.

They’re good at everything that isn’t fighting while being good at fighting. I as a player like rogues too, but if DnD were an MMO no one would pick other classes. As a game designer it’s too much stuff in one package. Take those abilities and break them up and give them to the entire party, and you have a more rounded group with advantages and disadvantages.

Hot take, rogues shouldn’t exist. It’s more entertaining for any other class to do their job. Every hero from fantasy is a thief at some point, but a specialist just takes most of the jobs adventurers do, and throws them into one pile. You parties will be more useful without a rogue.

For example, fantasy’s most famous burglar wasn’t a rogue. Bilbo was a commoner who was hired as a burglar. Do you think the Hobbit would have been better if Bilbo was amazing at his job?

You have no idea. It’s hard to explain, but Bob was a riot.

Back-and-forthic