“Outdoor cats” are just cats. They are not a domesticated species, hunting is their instinct, and should just not be introduced in places where they wreck havoc to the environment. Where they are endemic (Europe and continental Asia) they don’t cause troubles to the ecosystem
Wrong. Outdoor cats pose a significant risk to birds in Europe as well, especially because Europe has massively reduced the habitat of wildlife in recent centuries.
Cats found 200-500 meters away from any property are shot by hunters in Germany. Between 2007 and 2022 over 160,000 cats were killed in just 5/16 German states (the remaining one’s don’t publish numbers).
A single district in Northern Germany has had 660 cats shot within a year. In the dstrict’s state 2580 cats were shot in total. Note that the “landesweit” doesn’t refer to countrywide but rather to statewide (as German states are called “federal countries”).
Nah, that’s bullshit. They are causing troubles, both to themselves and to the ecosystem. House cats originated in around Egypt area, and were brought by humans everywhere else. They are invasive, and they are destroying ecosystems, and they are in danger every time they’re around.
I don’t think most people’s backyard is some kind of wildlife exclusion zone, and the problem isn’t specifically that cats are killing animals in other backyards that the neighbors called “dibs” on first.
The cat obviously isn’t being attended to while it’s outside.
The owners clearly imply that their other two cats have done the same thing and brought them dead animals before.
Cats don’t give a fuck about ‘property lines’. Period.
Cats will kill even when they don’t need to feed. Lock them up.
I love our cat, and I don’t want to see it squished in half by a car. I keep it inside. It’s a rescue, I know it was an outdoor cat before. It’s fine now.
We’re going through the biggest disinformation crisis in human history thanks exclusively to the Internet’s profound ability to change minds by spreading and normalizing bullshit, but “it’s just not gonna work” when it’s something you specifically don’t want to hear.
Edit: ironically, my mind was changed after hearing someone bring this up on the Internet and then reading the scientific literature.
This is a great argument for the possibility of changing some minds. You’ve definitely changed mine. My policy is unchanged though; I’m not going to set out with the goal of changing minds in online discussions.
Yes, but disinformation being spread far and wide isn’t the same as a single commenter on the internet trying keep people from letting cats outdoors. And for the record, I agree, letting cats outside isn’t good for the environment. Just pointing out you’re not gonna change a lot of minds.
Well… Not entirely true. It was a comment not dissimilar to the one at the top of this thread that made me realize we shouldn’t be keeping cats outdoors. We had always had the indoor/outdoor cat and never really thought anything about it. After that comment and doing a little research all of our cats became indoor cats from then on.
My dad actually did this with their patio. It’s fenced in with a 2.5m high net. Of course, this assumes the cat in question is docile enough to not want to climb it, which their current cat happens to be.
The whole reason for the fenced patio is because of their previous cat, which became blind at old age. So she could then still safely explore the outdoors.
You can do this, true. However, this obviously isn’t true for this post because it implies it’s normal for the other cats to bring in dead animals, which probably wouldn’t happen in a screened in patio.
What you’ve presented is a deeply biased opinion piece, and it wears this immense bias on its sleeve. It fearmongers that thinking about cats as killing wildlife could cause “extremism” (it then cites as its lone example a man who suggested banning cats in New Zealand; soooo scary). It cites some organization called “Alley Cat Allies” who call it extremely biased with ostensibly zero credentials. They cite lobbyist and serial sexual harasser Wayne Pacelle formerly of the Humane Society who questions the methodology but even concedes: “We don’t quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big.” And lastly, King herself does her own analysis on this meta-analysis’ methodology despite being – I emphasize – a professor of anthropology with no background in this field.
So your article has no one familiar with this field who could challenge if these statistical assumptions are actually reasonable. And here, given the authors are experts (and absent some published literature rebutting this in the 12 years since), I have no reason to believe their methodology would be so off as to meaningfully change the idea that “outdoor cats” are severely problematic.
The first source I use is just a scientific article. That’s it.
The third source is just a scientific article. That’s it.
The second source that I use to cite “dozens of extinctions” is quite emotionally charged, but here’s where that’s different: I could find a billion sources more credible than that NYT article about the dozens upon dozens of species who’ve met their end thanks to the domestic cat. These sources would give it an unemotional, academic treatment, yet I like how the NYT piece is narratively engaging rather than dry-ass “X et al. reported…”
I used scientific sources for (1) and (3) because those are claims people might actually think to contest. Moreover, the NYT doesn’t let itself slip into using garbage sources for the sake of its narrative. I could replace this source in two minutes, and then your argument about emotionally charged imagery would dissolve.
The reason I care so much about King’s massive bias in that article is because that bias is reflected in how absolutely egregious her sources are. She seems to genuinely not care how factual what she’s saying is as long as it conforms to her personal feelings, and so she turns it into assembling literally every source she can possibly find no matter how obscenely flimsy. She’s grasping at straws the entire article.
You should be aware this is an extremely American sentiment bordering on ignorant. Nowhere else in the world do you find people berating people for letting cats go outside.
Even in America, you won’t find it. It’s only coming from chronically-online people who are afraid of everything.
I’m sure if you could communicate the dangers to your cats, most of them would still choose to go outside. Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.
While I agree that cats are fine outside (while supervised and/or staying within their own yard - a small harness and leash can do the job), cats are just as healthy and happy staying indoors. My own cat actually refuses to go outside despite enjoying looking out the window all the time. I tried taking him outside a couple times to get him some exercise and he absolutely hated it. Different cats enjoy different environments.
Humans along with their cats and pigs have done a lot of damage to biodiversity around the world. It’s just one element of the 6th mass extinction we are causing.
You’re absolutely wrong. They’re native to the region around Turkey, so it’s not really an issue there. Everywhere else, it is. Yeah, a lot of third world countries don’t give a shit because they have other problems to worry about. It doesn’t make it not an issue though, and many countries have issues caused by them.
The cat that became the house cat is obviously what I’m talking about, not random distantly related species. I assume you know those aren’t the same species, right?
Years ago my indoor housecat would always try to rush out the back door whenever it was opened. One day she finally managed it and then wouldn’t come back in. Okay, shut the door. She proceeded to freak out and start yowling when we shut the door and left her out there for a few hours. Whatever, weather was nice and yard was enclosed.
Let her in after a few hours when it got dark, and she stopped trying to bolt outside. Nobody suffered, cat finally appreciated her cushy indoor life, and that was a win.
“Outdoor cats” are an invasive species that kill billions of animals every year, are a significant contributor to dozens of species’ extinction, and live shorter lives than cats properly cared for (i.e. kept indoors) including nearly 3x the risk for infections.
It’s a plague. We can’t keep normalizing this.
“Outdoor cats” are just cats. They are not a domesticated species, hunting is their instinct, and should just not be introduced in places where they wreck havoc to the environment. Where they are endemic (Europe and continental Asia) they don’t cause troubles to the ecosystem
Wrong. Outdoor cats pose a significant risk to birds in Europe as well, especially because Europe has massively reduced the habitat of wildlife in recent centuries.
Cats found 200-500 meters away from any property are shot by hunters in Germany. Between 2007 and 2022 over 160,000 cats were killed in just 5/16 German states (the remaining one’s don’t publish numbers).
Source? Never heard of that. German sources are fine as well.
That’s where the 160,000 deaths number came from. The largest German nature conservation NGO is also quoted as saying cats are a danger to birds.
A single district in Northern Germany has had 660 cats shot within a year. In the dstrict’s state 2580 cats were shot in total. Note that the “landesweit” doesn’t refer to countrywide but rather to statewide (as German states are called “federal countries”).
Nah, that’s bullshit. They are causing troubles, both to themselves and to the ecosystem. House cats originated in around Egypt area, and were brought by humans everywhere else. They are invasive, and they are destroying ecosystems, and they are in danger every time they’re around.
Nobody minds them when they’re catching rats.
Domestic cats arent the problem; ferals are…usually from owners who abandon them.
We dont have a bird shortage by any stretch…they come and eat the leftover cat food.
I definitely do mind, as much as when they kill birds or even insects.
A pet shouldn’t be allowed to murder all day long.
Except they dont murder all day long. That’s human’s job.
bwahaha that went a tad deeper than your regular “cute!!” comments expected under a post in this and similar cat communities 🧨
Going into your own backyard is a lot different than running through the neighborhood uninhibited.
Cats don’t give a fuck about ‘property lines’. Period.
Cats will kill even when they don’t need to feed. Lock them up.
I love our cat, and I don’t want to see it squished in half by a car. I keep it inside. It’s a rescue, I know it was an outdoor cat before. It’s fine now.
Maybe not, but you’re not going to change anybodies mind on the internet. Its just not gonna work.
We’re going through the biggest disinformation crisis in human history thanks exclusively to the Internet’s profound ability to change minds by spreading and normalizing bullshit, but “it’s just not gonna work” when it’s something you specifically don’t want to hear.
Edit: ironically, my mind was changed after hearing someone bring this up on the Internet and then reading the scientific literature.
This is a great argument for the possibility of changing some minds. You’ve definitely changed mine. My policy is unchanged though; I’m not going to set out with the goal of changing minds in online discussions.
Yes, but disinformation being spread far and wide isn’t the same as a single commenter on the internet trying keep people from letting cats outdoors. And for the record, I agree, letting cats outside isn’t good for the environment. Just pointing out you’re not gonna change a lot of minds.
Doesn’t have to be a lot. Even one changed mind for the positive is a gain. Simple as.
Well… Not entirely true. It was a comment not dissimilar to the one at the top of this thread that made me realize we shouldn’t be keeping cats outdoors. We had always had the indoor/outdoor cat and never really thought anything about it. After that comment and doing a little research all of our cats became indoor cats from then on.
Shutup they changed my mind you have no idea what youre talking about.
you’d need a very special backyard to fence a cat in
My dad actually did this with their patio. It’s fenced in with a 2.5m high net. Of course, this assumes the cat in question is docile enough to not want to climb it, which their current cat happens to be.
The whole reason for the fenced patio is because of their previous cat, which became blind at old age. So she could then still safely explore the outdoors.
You can do this, true. However, this obviously isn’t true for this post because it implies it’s normal for the other cats to bring in dead animals, which probably wouldn’t happen in a screened in patio.
that’s amazing! we currently keep ours indoors but i have plans for a catio
Yeah but birds aren’t real.
Those numbers are suspect. https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we-really-know-that-cats-kill-by-the-billions-not-so-fast and probably are a majority unowned cats. It’s not important to make sure your cat is spayed or neutered than making sure it stays indoors.
What you’ve presented is a deeply biased opinion piece, and it wears this immense bias on its sleeve. It fearmongers that thinking about cats as killing wildlife could cause “extremism” (it then cites as its lone example a man who suggested banning cats in New Zealand; soooo scary). It cites some organization called “Alley Cat Allies” who call it extremely biased with ostensibly zero credentials. They cite lobbyist and serial sexual harasser Wayne Pacelle formerly of the Humane Society who questions the methodology but even concedes: “We don’t quarrel with the conclusion that the impact is big.” And lastly, King herself does her own analysis on this meta-analysis’ methodology despite being – I emphasize – a professor of anthropology with no background in this field.
So your article has no one familiar with this field who could challenge if these statistical assumptions are actually reasonable. And here, given the authors are experts (and absent some published literature rebutting this in the 12 years since), I have no reason to believe their methodology would be so off as to meaningfully change the idea that “outdoor cats” are severely problematic.
I want you to know that I read through and appreciate this in depth write up and critique of the previous person’s source/citation.
Mine was a deeply biased opinion piece, and yours weren’t full of emotionally charged imagery and language? OK
Here’s the key:
I used scientific sources for (1) and (3) because those are claims people might actually think to contest. Moreover, the NYT doesn’t let itself slip into using garbage sources for the sake of its narrative. I could replace this source in two minutes, and then your argument about emotionally charged imagery would dissolve.
The reason I care so much about King’s massive bias in that article is because that bias is reflected in how absolutely egregious her sources are. She seems to genuinely not care how factual what she’s saying is as long as it conforms to her personal feelings, and so she turns it into assembling literally every source she can possibly find no matter how obscenely flimsy. She’s grasping at straws the entire article.
and there’s this great news: https://scitechdaily.com/bird-flu-is-now-killing-cats-at-a-90-fatality-rate-experts-warn-it-could-jump-to-humans/
This is the opposite of great
Sharing is caring
You should be aware this is an extremely American sentiment bordering on ignorant. Nowhere else in the world do you find people berating people for letting cats go outside.
Even in America, you won’t find it. It’s only coming from chronically-online people who are afraid of everything.
I’m sure if you could communicate the dangers to your cats, most of them would still choose to go outside. Locking cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.
Did Australia recently sink into the ocean and I just missed it?
Yeah, no.
I’ve heard it my whole life from my vets. I don’t know what you mean by “even in America you won’t find it”
I’ve got bad news: your vet is a chronically online loser who is afraid of everything!
While I agree that cats are fine outside (while supervised and/or staying within their own yard - a small harness and leash can do the job), cats are just as healthy and happy staying indoors. My own cat actually refuses to go outside despite enjoying looking out the window all the time. I tried taking him outside a couple times to get him some exercise and he absolutely hated it. Different cats enjoy different environments.
Humans along with their cats and pigs have done a lot of damage to biodiversity around the world. It’s just one element of the 6th mass extinction we are causing.
You’re absolutely wrong. They’re native to the region around Turkey, so it’s not really an issue there. Everywhere else, it is. Yeah, a lot of third world countries don’t give a shit because they have other problems to worry about. It doesn’t make it not an issue though, and many countries have issues caused by them.
What
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_cat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_mountain_cat
The cat that became the house cat is obviously what I’m talking about, not random distantly related species. I assume you know those aren’t the same species, right?
I thought the point was bird killing?
Years ago my indoor housecat would always try to rush out the back door whenever it was opened. One day she finally managed it and then wouldn’t come back in. Okay, shut the door. She proceeded to freak out and start yowling when we shut the door and left her out there for a few hours. Whatever, weather was nice and yard was enclosed.
Let her in after a few hours when it got dark, and she stopped trying to bolt outside. Nobody suffered, cat finally appreciated her cushy indoor life, and that was a win.
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just stfu, you’ll live, ik your chronically online but you don’t have to be scared of everything
It’s reasonable to be
scaredapprehensive of contributing to the extinction of a few species.